>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE FEDERAL TRANSPORTATION ADMINISTRATION AGREES WITH MOST RIDERS-- THE T IS A MESS.

IS A MESS.

BUT DAVID D'ALLESANDRO ISSUED SIMILAR WARNINGS MORE THAN A DECADE AGO, AFTER HIS OWN SAFETY INVESTIGATION FOR THEN-GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK.

HE JOINS ME ON WHAT HAS, AND HASN'T, CHANGED SINCE, AND THE TOUGH MOVES NECESSARY TO FINALLY FIX THINGS.

PLUS, WITH MIDTERMS AROUND THE CORNER, "FRONTLINE" IS DIVING DEEP INTO WHAT LED TO THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION, IN THE APTLY NAMED "LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY."

AND IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK.

FILMMAKER MICHAEL KIRK JOINS ME.

BUT FIRST, IT'S PRIMARY ELECTION DAY HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND IF YOU HAVEN'T VOTED YET, TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

THAT IS, UNLESS YOU'RE IN BARNSTABLE, IN WHICH CASE YOU HAVE UNTIL MIDNIGHT, THANKS TO A BALLOT VAULT MISHAP THIS MORNING.

BUT FOR EVERYONE ELSE, THE POLLS CLOSE AT 8:00.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF REASONS TO GET OUT THERE, AND FOR SOME, TODAY WAS A FIRST!

>> I JUST BECAME A U.S. CITIZEN AT THE END OF MAY, SO IT'S MY FIRST TIME BEING ABLE TO VOTE AND I WAS JUST EXCITED TO FULFILL MY CIVIC DUTY.

>> FOR ISSUES FOR ME, IT'S TRANSGENDER RIGHTS, L.G.B.T.Q.

RIGHTS, MAKE SURE THOSE KIDS ARE REPRESENTED PROPERLY.

>> CLIMATE CHANGE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES ARE THE CENTRAL OF MY FOCUS.

>> PEOPLE ALWAYS COMPLAIN ABOUT THINGS, BUT I FEEL THAT IF PEOPLE GET OUT AND VOTE, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE IF YOU VOTE FOR SOME PEOPLE THEY CAN CHANGE THINGS.

BUT IF YOU DON'T VOTE, HOW CAN THEY CHANGE THINGS?

>> Braude: THIS HASN'T EXACTLY BEEN AN EASY VOTING DAY, THOUGH, BETWEEN THE DRENCHING RAINS AND THE ADDED HEADACHE OF GETTING AROUND BOSTON WITH ALL THE M.B.T.A.

FIXES AND SHUTTLE BUSES IN PLAY.

MORE THAN HALFWAY THROUGH THE ORANGE LINE AND PARTIAL GREEN LINE SHUTDOWNS THAT HAVE TRIPLED COMMUTING TIME FOR SOME, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER SAID TODAY THAT MAINTENANCE WAS GOING "ACCORDING TO PLAN."

WHILE I HOPE HE'S RIGHT, EVEN IF HE IS, THESE ARE FAR FROM THE T'S ONLY PROBLEMS.

STAFFING ISSUES AND A SERIES OF ACCIDENTS, INJURIES, AND ONE RECENT DEATH HAVE FORCED SCHEDULE CUTS ON THE RED AND BLUE LINES.

A FEDERAL TRANSIT ADMINISTRATION REPORT OUT LAST WEEK BLAMED MANY OF THE PROBLEMS ON THE M.B.T.A.

"NOT EFFECTIVELY BALANCING SAFETY-CRITICAL OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES WITH ITS EFFORTS TO DELIVER CAPITAL PROJECTS."

AND WHILE MY NEXT GUEST PROBABLY WOULDN'T SAY "I TOLD YOU SO," OR MAYBE HE WOULD...

HE HIGHLIGHTED SIMILAR ISSUES 13 YEARS AGO, IN A REPORT THAT WARNED DEFERRED MAINTENANCE COULD POSE A "DANGER TO LIFE OR LIMB OF PASSENGERS AND/OR EMPLOYEES."

NOW, HE'S CALLING ON THE POWERS THAT BE TO "STOP WHINING AND ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THE BROKE AND BROKEN T," SAYING THE CURRENT ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE IS "TOO SLOW, TOO UNRESPONSIVE, AND TOO OVERWHELMED" TO MAKE THE CHANGES NEEDED.

THE MAN BEHIND THAT REALITY CHECK IS DAVID D'ALLESANDRO, FORMER C.E.O.

OF JOHN HANCOCK FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE LEAD AUTHOR OF THE 2009 M.B.T.A.

REVIEW UNDER GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK.

DAICHED DAVID, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SIGH, JIM.

>> Braude: LET ME QUOTE YOU TO YOU, OR YOUR REPORT TO YOU, NOTIFY 1S, 2009 THERE IS ABUNDANT EVIDENCE THAT THE SERVICE AND SAFETY ISSUES THAT PLAGUE THE T ARE CONSIDERABLY WORSE THAN IS COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD AND ARE BECOMING CRITICALLY WORSE.

THE RIDING PUBLIC DESERVES TO HAVE TANGIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THE T IS IMPROVING SAFETY AND SERVICE, NOT DETERIORATING FURTHER.

SO IS IT DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN?

>> YEAH, NO, I THE FIRST REPORT THAT CITED SAFETY AS AN SHOORKS AND IT HAS NOT BEEN THE LAST ONE, IT IS AN ONGOING PROBLEM WITH AN AGING SYSTEM THAT WE SIMPLY HAVE NOT INVESTED ENOUGH IN.

>> Braude: WELL, CHARLIE BAKER IF YOU WERE HERE, AND I DON'T THINK HE HAS AUTHORIZED ME TO SPEAK FOR HIM, WOULD I A I HAVE INVESTED $8 BILLION IN CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS, MORE THAN ANY GOVERNOR BEFORE ME SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO HIM DAVID DAL SANDRO.

>> I THINK CHARLIE BAKER DESPITE THE CRITICISM OF HIM ON THE MBDA HAS DONE THE BEST JOB SINCE MICHAEL DU CABBING US-- DU CABBINGIST, FANTASTIC DEDICATING TIME AND RESOURCE AND THE REPUTATIONS ON THE M.B.T.A.

THE POINT IS IT AIN'T ENOUGH.

$8 BILLION IS NOT ENOUGH.

WHAT IS THE NUMBER?

I DON'T-- $15 BILLION, 20 BILLION, AND A VERY LONG RATE FOR A LONG RUN, MAYBE 20 YEARS.

>> Braude: I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT MONEY IN A SECOND BUT FIRST ABOUT YOUR OP ED IN THE GLOBE THE OTHER DAY WHERE YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING GOVERNANCE REFORM LEADING TO MORE ACCOUNTABILITY PARTICULARLY TO THE GOVERNOR AND THE MAYOR WERE THE PATH OUT OF THE WILDERNESS, IS THAT A FAIR SUM ARRY?

>> IT IS A FAIR SUM ARRY.

>> AND EXPLAIN HOW WE GET FROM HERE TO THERE.

>> WHAT DO WE DO?

>> YOU HAVE A LEGISLATURE THAT IS, YOU KNOW, I'M RETIRED NOW SO I WILL BE FRANK IT IS A IMIT OF A CLOWN CAR ON THE SUBJECT, THERE ARE LEGISLATORS WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE M.B.T.A.

BUT HAVE UNDERFUNDED IT FOR YEARS, PUT IN PROGRAMS MANY YEARS AGO THAT SIMPLY HAVE NOT WORKED AND YET THEY ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE.

AT LEAST MAYOR WU AND OSTENSIBLY I ASSUME GOVERNOR ELECT HALEYS ON OR WHOEVER THE GOVERNOR IS.

>> COME OUT AND HAVE A TRANSPORTATION PLAN, YOU NEED POLITICIANS REALLY ENGAGED HERE AND I THINK THAT WE NEED TO HAVE THE MAYOR MUCH MORE INVOLVED BECAUSE ALL ROADS LEAD TO BOSTON.

ALL TRAINS LEAD TO BOSS TORNTION ALL BUSES LEAD HERE.

>> Braude: HOW IS SHE MORE INVOLVED, DAVID.

>> WELL SHE, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY WE HAVE TO CLOSE THE GREEN LINE FOR 90 DAYS, OR 60 DAYS.

SHE CONTROLS ALL THE SERVICE ROADS.

AND WE COULD PERHAPS HAVE DEDICATED LANES FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS.

I'M SURE YOU RECALL THE BIG DIG AND HOW TOUGH THE BIG DIG WAS FOR 10 YEARS, 15 YEARS AND HOW INCONVENIENT.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE IN FOR AND THE MAYOR, THE MAYOR IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ALL OF THAT PLUS I THINK THE MAYOR IS VERY CONNECTED TO ALL THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MOVE PEOPLE TO JOBS.

>> AND YOU BELIEVE THAT SHE SHOULDN'T JUST GET THE ONE SEAT ON THE BOARD THAT SHE WANTS, BUT ACTUALLY POTENTIALLY TWO.

NOW IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

>> YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

>> YOU HAVE A POLITICIAN WILLING TO TAKE SPOBLGHT.

LET'S LAY SOME RESPONSIBILITY ON THEM.

>> YOU ALSO THINK FOR THERE TO BE MORE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THE HEAD OF THE T SHOULD BE ELEVATED TO CABINET LEVEL POSITION.

BUT THE REALITY IS IF YOU STOPPED AN AVERAGE PERSON ON THE STREET I THINK THEY WOULD SAY DESPITE THE FACT THAT HIS APPROVAL RATINGS CONTINUE TO BE ASTRONOMICALLY HIGH THAT CHARLIE BAKER IS IN CHARGE OF THE T, HE APPOINTS ALL MEMBERS OF THE BOARD.

SO WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS AND WHAT YOU PROPOSE FOR GOV GOVERNOR.

>> WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO DO IS LOOK TOWARD THE PRIVATE WORLD TO HELP US FIX SOME OF THESE ISSUES WHICH MEANS WE NEED TO HAVE REALLY HIGHLY EXPERIENCED PEOPLE WHO MAKE A FORTUNE ON THE OUTSIDE, WORKING IN THE GOVERNMENT OR-- AND I THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE A CABINET SECRETARY LEVEL BECAUSE THAT PERSON WILL GET A LOT MORE ATTENTION FROM ALL OF THE OTHER DEPARTMENT HEADS AS WELL.

I THINK WE HAVE ASSOCIATED THE T TO THE TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY AND YES, THE TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY IS IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTATION BUT ALSO IN CHARGE OF THE REGISTRY AND LOTS OF OTHER THINGS.

AND I THINK PROBABLY THE PERSON TO GET FOR THE CABINET WOULD BE MUCH BETTER.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED BUSINESS GETTING INVOLVED.

WHILE I'M NOT AT THE LIBRARY WHERE I AM TONIGHT AT WORK OBVIOUSLY BACK IN BRIGHTON, AND THERE WAS A COMPANY THAT GOT INVOLVED IN BUILDING, FUNDS THAT COMMUTER RAIL THING.

SHOULDN'T WE SEE MAJOR CORPORATIONS LIKE THE ONE YOU USED TO RUN, MORE FINANCIALLY INVOLVED IN WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

>> MY VIEW IS, HERE IS AN EXAMPLE FOR THE MAYOR AND GOVERNOR COMING TOGETHER AND SAYING LOOK, FOR ALL OF THE MAJOR CORPORATIONS IN TOWN, AND FOR FRANKLY THE NONPROFIT BUT BIG HOSPITALS AND YEUFORTS D, HOW ABOUT YOU PAY FOR ALL OF YOUR EMPLOYEES TRANSPORTATION.

GIVE US PASSES.

GIVE ALL EMPLOYEES PASSES AND MAYBE CONTRIBUTION THAT WAY.

I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO REFURBISHMENT OF THE LINES, AND ALL OF THAT I'M NOT SURE CORPORATIONS CAN DO US MUCH.

ALTHOUGH I DO THINK PRIVATIZING SOME OF THESE ISSUES WILL BE A MAJOR ACCELERATOR TO FIXING THE PROBLEMS, WHEN I SAY PRIVATIZING, YOU KNOW, USING OUTSIDE FIRMS MORE AGGRESSIVELY.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS, I THINK I'M NOT ATYPICAL WHEN I THINK OF THE PROBLEMS OF THE T I THINK ABOUT RIDERS, AVERAGE WORKERS, AVERAGE COMMUTERS, AVERAGE PEOPLE THAT GO TO JOHN HANCOCK, BUT YOU RAN ONE OF THOSE COMPANIES, LET'S ASSUME YOU WERE RUNNING A COMPANY IN CLEVELAND THAT WAS DECIDING WHETHER TO MOVE TO BOSTON OR BLANK, SOME OTHER MAJOR AMERICAN CITY.

THAT CITY HAD ITS TRANSPORTATION, PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM AFFORDABLE, SAFE, ON TIME, AND BOSTON WAS THE OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

WOULD NOT THE STATE OF THE T CAUSE YOU TO YOU LEAN IN THE DIRECTION OF SOME OTHER COMMUTE SNO.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY A CONTRIBUTOR.

OUR TAXES ARE GOING UP.

OUR COST OF LIVING HERE IS GOING UP.

AND THEN TRYING TO LAY ON TOP OF THAT TRANSPORTATION THAT DURCHLT WORK, LOOK, THERE SAY WHOLE BUNCH OF MILLENIALS THAT ARE SIMPLY GOING TO LOOK FOR CITIES, THEY WANT TO WORK IN CITIES THAT WORK, THAT ACTUALLY, THEY CAN GET AROUND EASILY.

THEY WANT A PLACE-- THEY WANT WAYS TO GET TO-- TO SOUTHIE MORE EFFICIENTLY.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE CONTRIBUTORS TO WHY A C.E.O.

WOULD SAY NO TO BOSTON.

>> IT SEEMS PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHILE YOU LAY A LOT OF BLAME AND I'M WITH YOU WITH THE LEGISLATURE, THEY HAVE THE VOTE, THE DEMOCRATS DO TO OVERRIDE ANYTHING CHARLIE BAKER DOES OR DOESN'T WANT TO DO, THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY I THINK HAS BEEN A REAL PROBLEM.

JIM ROONIE IS HEAD OF THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, USED TO WORK AT THE T. THE FIRST TIME I EVER HEARD HIM CRITICIZE CHARLIE BAKER'S PERFORMANCE ON THE T WAS SHORTLY AFTER HE SAID I'M NOT RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

THERE IS TOO MUCH SILENCE, ALMOST COMPLICIT AMONG-- I'M SERIOUS S THAT NOT TRUE.

>> THE LEADERS, THERE IS THIS COMMUNITY TODAY.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE THE QUALITY OF BUSINESS LEADERSHIP WE HAD IN THIS TOWN THAT WE HAD 15 YEARS AGO.

MOST OF THE LEADERS OF THE TOWN, THE PRIVATE EQUITY PEOPLE NOW, THEY JOINED THE CHARITIES BUT THEY ARE NOT OUT THERE ON POLITICAL ISSUES.

NOT OUT THERE ON TRANSPORTATION.

OR TAXES OR GLONG.

NONE OF IT.

>> YOU KNOW, DAVID, YOU SAID A MINUTE AGO THAT IN ADDITION TO THE QUALITY OF THE T WHEN YOU ARE DECIDING AS A C.E.O.

WHERE TO LOCATE YOUR BUSINESS, TAXES ARE GOING UP, TAXES WITH ALL DUE RESPECT ARE NOT GOING UP.

IN MASSACHUSETTS.

CHARLIE BAKER HAS BEEN MOSTLY A NO NEW TAX GUY, HE HAS GOT CLOSE TO A BILLION DOLLARS IN TAX CUTS BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE.

THE LEGISLATURE PRETTY MUCH WAS READY TO DO, EVEN THOUGH AS YOU SAY IN YOUR OP ED IN THE GLOBE, THEY'RE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT SPORTS BETTING THAN THE $4 BILLION ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PLAN.

A HANDFUL OF YEARS AGO YOU ARE QUOTED IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE," I THINK YOU ASKED THE QUESTION, DO I THINK IT CAN BE DONE, MEANING FIXING THE T WITHOUT A RIDE IN FEES AND TAXES, DAVID D'ALLESANDRO SAID NOT A CHANCE, CAN BE BE FIXED TODAY WITHOUT RAISING TAXES AND FEES?

>> NO, UNLESS SOMEONE EXPECTS THE FAIRY GODMOTHER TO COME OUT OF WASHINGTON, THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE ARE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE TO RAISE TAXES, WE'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO RAISE FEES.

BUT AGAIN, HERE SAN EXAMPLE, AS YOU POINT OUT, JIM, WHY CAN'T CORPORATIONS AND OTHER ENTITIES PAY FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES?

THAT IS ONE WAY TO SUBSIDIZE THE T RIGHT AWAY.

>> SO ANOTHER PHRASE APPARENTLY ALL I'M DOING IS QUOTING YOU TO YOU BUT I REMEMBER MANY A TIME TALKING TO YOU OR READING YOUR COMMENTS IN THE PAPER, AT THE TIME, NOT JUST IN 2009 BUT SUBSEQUENTLY, TALKING ABOUT THE LEGISLATURE KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD.

I REMEMBER YOU QUOTED AS SAYING, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT NOT ONE SINGLE LEDGE SLAILTER REACHED OUT TO YOU AFTER YOU RELEASED THIS DAMNING REPORT ABOUT THE STATE OF THE T IN 2009.

THAT IS ACCURATE, ISN'T IT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

YES.

>> SO WHAT IS YOUR ANALYSIS AS A PRIVATE SECTOR GUY AS TO WHY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE KNOW HOW SERIOUS THE PROBLEM IS, KNOW HOW SERIOUS IT WAS IN 2009 AND BEFORE AND CONTINUE TO LET IT FESTER?

>> BECAUSE NONE OF THEM WANT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

AND WE DON'T HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

YOU KNOW, IN MY VIEW, JIM, TELL ME THE LAST LEGISLATOR WE THREW OUT OF OFFICE BECAUSE THEY MADE A PROMISE ABOUT THE T THAT WASN'T KEPT, SO WE UNELECTED THEM.

AND BECAUSE NO PERCENTAGE COULD GO TOO FAR OFF THE T BECAUSE THERE IS ARE NO CONSEQUENCES, IF WE AS CITIZENS WERE ACTUALLY TO HOLD THE LEGISLATE TURE HARMFUL YOU WOULD SEE MORE ACTION.

>> Braude: IF I MAY QUOTE THEIR MOST RECENT STATISTICS I THINK MOST PEOPLE THINK GOVERNOR BAKER HASN'T SHIED AWAY FOR THE MOST PART SAYING THE T STOPS HERE, FIGURATIVELY AT LEAST AND HE HAS 73 PERCENT APPROVAL WHILE THERE PROBABLY AREN'T 3 PERCENT OF THE RIDERS OF THE T THAT ARE HAPPY.

>> I'M NOT SHEUMPLET I LIKE THE GOVERNOR, I I THINK HE HAS DONE A GREAT JOB, HOWEVER HE IS NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

IF HE WAS RUNNING FOR OFFICE NOW THE MEDIA WOULD BE SAVAGING HIM AND A LOT OF CITIZENS WOULD PROBABLY BE ON THE MEDIA'S SIDE.

SO HE HAS A PASS HERE.

BUT LET'S BE REALISTIC ABOUT THAT.

>> Braude: OKAY, SO HERE IS YOUR NOSTRADAMUS MOMENT DAVID D'ALLESANDRO.

>> YES.

>> Braude: IT IS 2022, WE TALKED WHEN DID YOU YOUR REPORT IN 2009.

IT IS 2032, ARE WE GOING TO BE HAVING THE EXACT SAME CONVERSATION?

>> I BELIEVE WE WILL.

I BELIEVE WE WILL BECAUSE UNLESS WE HOLD OUR LEDGE SLAILTERS AND OUR POLITICIANS ACCOUNTABLE, AND THAT IS WHY I AM IN FAVOR OF PUTTING THE ONUS BACK ON OUR NEW GOVERNOR, OUR NEW MAYOR AND HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE AS WELL AS THE SPEAKER, AND UNTIL WE DO THAT, AND HAVE CANDIDATES THAT WELL WILL LOSE OFFICE BECAUSE THEY CREWED UP THE T, WE'LL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> WELL, I HOPE IT HAPPENS SOONER, I HOPE I SEE YOU SOONER THAN 20326789 DAVID D'ALLESANDRO, PLEASURE AS ALWAYS, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> Braude: BE WELL, YOU CAN READ HIS NUL PIECE AND YOU SHOULD IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE."

AS WE ROUND THE BEND PAST THE PRIMARIES AND HEAD FULL-SPEED INTO THE MID-TERMS, WHAT BETTER TIME IS THERE FOR A LITTLE REMINDER ABOUT HOW MUCH IS AT STAKE?

AND "FRONTLINE" IS DELIVERING, WITH A LOOK BACK AT HOW WE ENDED UP WITH THE CAPITOL INSURRECTION, FOCUSED ON HOW LEADING REPUBLICANS OCCASIONALLY CHALLENGED TRUMP, BUT ULTIMATELY DETERMINED THAT THEY JUST CAN'T QUIT HIM.

>> KEVIN McCARTHY MAKES A POLITICAL DECISION, WHICH IS BETTING ON THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE A HOLD OVER THE BASE AND THE PARTY.

>> WE SEE LINDSEY GRAHAM TRYING TO GET BACK IN TRUMP'S GOOD GRACES AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SYMBOLIC OF WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> THE THING THAT DRIVES 99% OF THE FOLKS IN POLITICS IS SELF PRESERVATION TO MAKE NOISE MIGHT NOT BE GOOD IN TERMS OF MY OWN POLITICAL INTEREST THEREFORE ILL STAY QUIET.

>> I HEARD FROM A SPECIFIC SENATOR WHO SAID MITCH HAS TOLD US TO STAY QUIET AGAINST THE PRESIDENT IN THIS PERIOD, AND I THINK THAT LED TO A LOT OF WHAT OTHERWISE WOULD BE A LOT OF INFLUENTIAL SENATORS AT LEAST COUNTERING THE VOICE OF DONALD TRUMP BEING SILENT.

AND SILENCE IS COMPLICITY.

>> Braude: THAT COMPLICITY, AND THE PATH IT CARVED TOWARD INSURRECTION IS THE FOCUS OF FRONTLINE'S "LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY," WHICH PREMIERES TONIGHT.

DIRECTOR MICHAEL KIRK JOINS ME.

MICHAEL, CONGRATULATIONS YET AGAIN, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS, JIM, GOOD TO HE SEE YOU TOO.

>> Braude: PEOPLE MAY THINK ON THE SURFACE ST A STORY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS SERIAL LYING BUT WHAT I SAID THERE IS TRUE.

IT REALLY IS A STORY ABOUT THE COMPLICIT AND COWARDICE AMONG HIS FELL FELLOW REPUBLICANS PARTICULARLY LEADERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY S IT NOT.

>> YES, I THINK IT IS A FILM IN MANY WAYS MORE ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND IT'S LEADERS THAN DONALD TRUMP.

IT IS-- WE HAVE BEEN GATHERING STRING ON THO FOR SIX YEARS WATCHING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT HIM, WE MADE 15 FILMS ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND ALL ALONG WE KEPT WATCHING THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP JOCKEY FOR WHAT TO DO, TO DO WE MANIPULATE HIM, CAN HE MANIPULATE US, ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE SEEN, EMPOWERING, ENABLING, ALL THAT HAS BEEN MADE THERE, THE DEAL WITH THE DEVIL IF YOU WILL EXCUSE THE EXPRESSION.

AND THIS, AND NOW, RIGHT BEFORE THE MID TERMS, RIGHT BEFORE REALLY TRUMP ANNOUNCES WHAT TO DO IN 2024, WE FELT WE BETTER LAY OUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND WHERE THE PARTY STANDS AT THIS MOMENT.

IN RELATION TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES T IS NOT JUST THE McCONNELLS OF THE WORLD, THE McCARTHY, TED CRUZ, I'M SURE PEOPLE REMEMBER, AND YOU RECOUNT THIS IN YOUR FILM, CANDIDATE TRUMP ESSENTIALLY SUGGESTED THAT HIS WIFE WAS UGLY AND CRUZ'S FATHER WAS INVOLVED INVOLVED IN ASSASSINATION OF J.F.K.

SO CRUZ IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME IN A TOUGH SETTING AT THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATING SESSION DID STAND TALL THERE IS A BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> IT TOOK DAYS FOR CRUZ TO DECIDE.

>> HE TELLS IN HIS DECISION THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO ENDORSE DONALD TRUMP IN HIS SPEECH.

AND THEY ASK HIM WHY.

AND CRUZ LOOKS AT THEM AND HE SAYS, HISTORY ISN'T KIND TO THE MAN WHO HOLDS MUSSOLINI'S JACKET HE WAS RECEIVING LOTS OF ADVICE IMPLORING ADVICE SAYING TO HIM IN EFFECT, TED, THIS IS BAD FOR THE PARTY.

IT'S BAD FOR TRUMP, IT'S ALSO REALLY BAD FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR FUTURE IF YOU DON'T GET ON BOARD THE TRUMP TRAIN.

>> Braude: EVENTUALLY HE AND VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY ELSE EXCEPT MAYBE KINZINGER AND CHENEY DID GET ON THE TRUMP TRAIN, WHY, WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM DECIDE AFTER A MOMENT OF COURAGE THAT TRUMP IS THE TICKET FOR THEM?

>> SOMEBODY TOLD ME THE DEFINITION OF A POLITICIAN IS SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE RE-ELECTED.

THAT IS IF YOU ARE A POLITICIAN, YOU WILL DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO GET RE-ELECTED.

IN ALMOST EVERY CASE, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE CASES OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OVER THESE LAST FEW YEARS.

TRYING TO RIDE HERD ON TRUMP AND FINALLY REALIZING IF THEY WANT TO GET THINGS THEY'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH HIM AND THEN IT GET TOOS LATE AFTER JANUARY 6th FOR THEM TO WALK AWAY.

THEY REALIZE THAT HE'S GOT THEM.

HE OWNS THE MAGAZINEA BASE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN LAST WEEK CALLED THE EXTREMIST MAGA BASE.

BUT I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF THAT, JIM.

I THINK ALSO PEOPLE LIKE McCONNELL MADE DEALS AND THEY THOUGHT WELL, AULIFFE'S GOT TO DO IS PRETEND TO BE LOYAL.

BUT HERE THEY ARE NOW, THEY ARE LEGACY TARRED WITH WHAT THEY LET HAPPEN ESPECIALLY AS MORE AND MORE OF US DISCOVER WHAT WENT ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS BETWEEN THEM AND TRUMP.

>> Braude: BUT McCONNELL IS ARGUABLY ONE OF THE MOST STRATEGIC MEN ON THE PLAN ED.

I WATCHED MONA-- A CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR, WORKED FOR RONALD REAGAN SAYING ALL THEY HAD TO DO AFTER THEIR FINE PEOPLE OP BOTH SIDES AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE, THAT WAS THE MOMENT, BAND TOGETHER.

DON'T STAND UP ONE BY ONE BY ONE.

SHE DIDN'T MENTION MITCH McCONNELL.

MITCH McCONNELL CALLS IN 40 SENATORS, 50 SENATORS, WHATEVER ST, AND SAYS GENTLEMEN, LADIES, WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS AS ONE.

WHY DID THAT NEVER SURFACE AS A POSSIBILITY FOR ANY OF THESE GUYS IN WINNING.

>> YOU MEAN WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THINGS-- .

>> Braude: WHY DIDN'T THEY UNIONIZE AND ESSENTIALLY DO IT AS A GROUP RATHER THAN INDIVIDUALS WHICH THEY COULDN'T-- WEREN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO DO?

>> RIGHT, THAT IS THE 64,000 DOLLAR QUESTION.

THAT I KEPT ASKING, WHY, WHY NOT JUST STEP UP.

IN NOT JUST DO IT WELL, SOME OF IT IS THE HUBRIS.

MITCH McCONNELL WANTED A CONSERVATIVE STREAM COURT FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.

AND HE THOUGHT, I THINK HE THOUGHT HE COULD MANAGE HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP BECAUSE HE'S BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIS CAREER AT DOING EXACTLY THAT.

BUT NOBODY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT I CAN FIND HAS EVER BEEN ABLE, WAS EVER ABLE TO MANAGE HIM, TO UNDERSTAND HIM, TO KNOW THAT THIS GUY INNOVATE-- INVADED THE PARTY, WASN'T EVEN A REPUBLICAN AND HE INVADED THEIR PARTY AND THEY COULDN'T STOP HIM AND THEY REALLY THOUGHT THEY COULD BECAUSE THEY ARE KIND OF POLITICIANS AND THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD DO DEALS.

WELL, HE WASN'T ABOUT TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THEM, THAT'S FOR SURE EXCEPT THE TAKING OVER AND MOVING IN THE DIRECTION HE'S MOVED IT IN.

WHICH IS NOW THEY'RE STUCK.

I CAN'T SEE ANY OF THEM WALKING AWAY FROM HIM.

AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHEN YOU THINK WELL, WHAT'S THE NATURE OF THE IMPACT OF ALL OF THIS ON THE DEMOCRACY, WELL, THAT'S THE IMPACT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT TRUMP HIMSELF FOR A MINUTE.

I WOULD NEVER HAVE THOUGHT THAT I WOULD PRAISE A FILL -- FILMMAKER FOR A TWO MINUTE OPENING THAT INCLUDED WENDELL WILKIE, THE LOSING CANDIDATE IN 1944, I THINK.

CAN YOU JUST DESCRIBE THE FIRST TWO MINUTES OF THIS FILM WHICH ARE REALLY ELECTRIC.

>> WE WERE SITTING AROUND TRYING TO FINISH THE FIRL AM, TRYING TO THINK OF A WAY TO FINISH THE FILM AND I GOT THIS BRIGHT IDEA THAT WHY DON'T WE GET EVERYBODY WHO HAS EVER DONE THE CONCESSION SPEECH, EVEN FROM THE DAYS WHEN IT WAS A TEL GRAM SENT AND THEY BASICALLY READ THE TEL GRAM, LET'S GET THEM ALL.

EVERYBODY WHO HE CAN WITH FIND AND WE DUG OUT ALL THIS FOOTAGE AS FAR BACK AS WE COULD GO, AS FAR BACK AS TELEVISION GOES, I THINK, AND LAID THEM ALL OUT.

AND THERE THEY WERE, LITTLE BURSTS AND IT WAS JUST FABULOUS.

AND FIRST THE ARGUMENT IS WE SHOULD START WITH TRUMP AND NO, NO, NO, WE'LL FINISH WITH TRUMP BECAUSE AFTER YOU SEE HISTORY LAID OUT THAT WAY, AND THAT NOBODY HAS EVER DONE WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID AT 2:30 IN THE MORNING ON THE NIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION, IT REALLY MAKES IN A WAY, THE POINT ABOUT THE ENTIRE FILM.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, ALSO AS A STUDENT OF YOUR FILMS, MICHAEL KIRK, WHEN I'M WATCHING THAT LITTLE TRUMP BITE SAYING I WON, ACTUALLY, I HARKEN BACK TO ONE OF YOUR GREAT QUAD REN YAL FEATURES, THE CHOICE, WHERE YOU SPEND TWO HOURS ON EACH CANDIDATE AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF ROY COULDHEN PEOPLE KNOW FROM THE McCARTHY HEARING AS LAWYER FOR THE TRUMP FAMILY, WHEN THEY COME OUT IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY FROM THE HOUSING DISCRIMINATION CASE THAT THEY WERE BRUTALIZED AND LOST IN TO BASICALLY TELL TRUMP SAY WE WON, SAY WE WON RELENTLESSLY AND NEVER STOP AND PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE US.

AND DECADES LATER, IT'S THE LESSONS OF ROY COULDHEN THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS INTERNALIZED, ON ELECTION NIGHT, THE NIGHT HE LOST AS YOU SHOW IN IOWA TO TED CRUZ, ALL THAT STUFF TRAILSES BACK TO COULDHEN, NO.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT-- TO COHEN, YOU AND I MAY BE THE ONLY PEOPLE, AND OUR EDITOR AND THE OTHER PEOPLE ON MY TEAM WHO REMEMBER ALL THOSE STRANDS AND TEN AK ELS OF THINGS THAT TRUMP DOES BUT THEY ARE ALL THERE.

THEY WERE ALL THERE.

THEY WERE IN PLAIN SIGHT, JIM, SINCE 2014, 2015, AS HE STARTED TO MAKE THE RUN.

BUT WE JUST NEVER, WE ALL BELIEVED, I THINK, THAT THE PIVOT WOULD HAPPEN.

AND SUDDENLY THE POWER AND THE MAJESTY GIVE WAY TO THE RESPONSIBILITY, WHEN ARE YOU DONALD TRUMP SITTING IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

BUT OF COURSE THAT WAS NOT TO BE.

>> Braude: YOU IAN GO BACK AS FAR AS TO SAY HE THOUGHT THE EMMYS WERE RIGGED WHEN THE APPRENTICE LOST ON BEST WHATEVER, REALITY SHOW.

YOU KNOW, I WANT TO CHANGE GEARS, YOU HAVE JONATHAN CARL FROM ABC IN YOUR FILM.

I WANT TO READ A QUOTE TO YOU IN MARGARET SULLIVAN, THE MEDIA CRITIC FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST'S" FINAL COLUME THE OTHER DAY, HERE IS WHAT CARL IS QUOTED AS SAYING, HOW DO YOU COVER A CANDIDATE WHO IS AFFECTLY ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

HOW DO YOU COVER A CANDIDATE RUNNING BOTH AGAINST WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE S BUT ALSO RUNNING AGAINST THE VERY DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT MAKES ALL THIS POSSIBLE?

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT WHEN MAKING THIS FILM?

AND I'M GUESSING ARE YOU ALREADY THINKING ABOUT HOW DO I POR STAY A DONALD TRUMP IF HE RUN FORCE RE-ELECTION IN 2024, IN THE CHOICE?

HOW DO YOU COVER A MAN WHO IS ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY THE SYSTEM THAT HE IS ATTEMPTING TO HEAD?

>> THIS WAY.

THE WAY WE DO IN THIS FILM.

WE TRY TO TELT TRUTH.

YOU TRY TO BE FAIR TO THE INNOCENT AND POINT THE FINGER AT THE PEOPLE WHO ENABLED AND HELPED HIM.

AND LEARN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THIS, THAT THIS MAN, I THINK THE FIRST WORDS IN THE FILM ARE, ARE ABOUT THE LIE THAT HE TOLD THAT NIGHT.

IRMEAN THIS IS, THERE ARE SOME PARTS OF SOME STORIES THAT THERE IS JUST NOT ANOTHER SIDE ON.

AND I THINK THE RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP AND THE TRUTH AND TO DEMOCRACY AND TO THE CONSTITUTION AND TO THE GUARD RATES AND NORMS THAT WE THOUGHT WE HAD, THAT STORY NEEDED TO BE TOLD.

WE'VE TOLD AS MUCH OF IT AS WE GO FROM 30,000 FEET, IT IS MY FERVENT HOPE THAT NOT ONLY WILL THIS FILM LAY DOWN AS HISTORY FOR OTHERS BUT IT WILL SPARK OTHERS TO GO FORWARD IN THE SAME WAY AND COVER THE PARTS THAT WE JUST COULDN'T COVER OR-- .

>> Braude: I HOPE ST ALL TRUE, WE ONLY HAVE 45 SECONDS LEFT.

YOU REGULARLY SPEAK TO ZEN BLAT WHO WROTE THAT BOOK HOW DEMOCRACIES DIE, AND THROUGHOUT YOUR FILL TESTIMONY, THEY COME IN TALKING ABOUT HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR EXACTLY WHAT STRONG MAN TRUMP IS DOING.

SO THEY SEEM TO BE SAYING, MAYBE NOT AS DEFINITIVELY AS I'M NOW SUGGESTING IT, THAT WE WILL BE ONE OF THOSE DEMOCRACIES THAT THEY ARE WRITING ABOUT, THE EM IF THE EMBRACE OF TRUMP CONTINUES.

>> ALMOST EVERYONE WE TALK TO, WE INTERVIEWED 30 PEOPLE FOR THIS FIM, ALMOST EVERYONE, AND NO DEMOCRATS, AND ALMOST EVERY ONE IN THIS FILM THAT WE TALKED TO IS WORRIED, DESPERATELY WORRIED ABOUT A TRUMP CANDIDACY AND WORRIED ABOUT EVEN THE MID-TERMS.

LET'S SAY THE MID-TERMS ARE REPUBLICAN SWEEP OR AT LEAST AN EFFECTIVE REPUBLICAN TAKEDOWN.

PLENTY TO WORRY BH, JIM, PLENTY TO WORRY ABOUT IN 2024.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU BRILLIANTLY-- WHAT IS THAT.

>> AND THAT IS FROM THE PEOPLE WE TALKED TO.

THAT IS NOT EVEN MY OPINION.

AND I WANT TO PUT MY HEAD UNDER THE PILLOW ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW.

IT'S A SCARY TIME.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU WATCH THE FILM AND I THINK PEOPLE LEARN IT IS TIME TO GET YOUR HEAD OUT FROM UNDER THE PILLOW AND ANOTHER SPECTACULAR PIECE OF WORK, BY YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES, MICHAEL, THANKS SO MUCH, APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> Braude: "FRONTLINE'S" LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY PREMIERES TONIGHT AT 9:00 ON GBH 2, THE PBS VIDEO APP, AND ONLINE AT pbs.org/frontline.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

IF YOU HAVEN'T VOTED YET, YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LEFT TO HEAD OUT AND MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD.

THEN BE SURE TO JOIN US TOMORROW FOR A FULL RECAP, AND LOOK AHEAD AT WHERE WE GO FROM HERE.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org